User talk:Sannse

Help
Excuse us, Sannse. We're in need of help. The admin's left since August 2007, and there are some articles that we need deleted. They are listed in Kingdom Hearts Wiki:Pages for Deletion‎. Thanks in advance. Blue. 15:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Apologies
We're sorry that you have to be the one that receives the vitriol about Oasis, and we wish we could have more pleasant discussions. However, this isn't just a matter of getting use to the skin - it completely destroys many of our pages irreparably, like Dimension Link. This really isn't a "choice" for us; either wikia allows monaco to remain, or it has forced us to move.

Again, sorry that you have to receive all this negativity. We really appreciate how much work you've put into the project, and we're sorry things didn't work out.Kryten Koro 01:15, October 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Kryten. Thanks for the kind words :)
 * That table does get a bit squished, but it's still readable -- so I wouldn't say "destroyed". One thing to remember is that people using some resolutions already see the table that way.  Part of the reason for using a fixed width is that it means you can design pages knowing that everyone will see it looking the same.  But I know it's more work on pages like that at first.
 * Anyway, thanks for listening, and please let me know if you need anything -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 02:45, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

Just keep the new skin optional. This uprising is going on because eventually we won't have any choice in the matter. If we can keep the mocao skin then any issues we have with the oasis one become mute.03:04, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean, Sannse. Quite a few words are just straight-up cut in half, even when it's one word in a cell. That's beyond bizarre. We already had to fine-tune that page just to get it to display at all on normal resolutions - it is really impossible to "fix" it without removing content wholesale, which is unacceptable.
 * I understand that some people may have lower resolutions, but surely the best solution is to make the wiki look as good as possible to as many readers as possible, rather than making it look like trash to everyone? Why don't you try it just to see  what happens?  03:57, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is what I see: File:Table.png - narrowed, but not cut off. Perhaps there's a browser difference?  If so, that's something that needs to be looked in to.
 * On "make the wiki look as good as possible to as many readers as possible" - yep, agreed. I think we disagree on how's best to do that, but we definitely agree on the goal :) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 04:10, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the top of the table does look like that. That is already incredibly hard to read (try making sense of Cinderella's deck section), and if you scroll down further, you can see that single words end up cut in half. Why don't you try it just to see  what happens?  12:25, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you take a screen shot of the cut off words? I can't see it.  Thanks -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 15:59, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not really, no. Just scroll down and you should see it. Maybe someone else could whip up a screenshot for you, I guess, but I don't have access to image-editing programs on this computer.23:07, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hopefully someone can, I don't get the cut off words, so there's something strange there -- I suspect it may be a browser issue, so I'd like to track it down. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 03:41, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have a screenshot of the entire page, but it's so long that if I put it on photobucket, you'll never be able to see anything. Can I upload it temporarily? -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  04:20, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, here, remember to zoom in. -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  04:45, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that Dark Falcon. I still don't exactly understand, I see some phrases (like "Sonic Blade") on two lines, but none there a word is cut off.  It's possible to tweak things to make two words stay together, but such big tables are always going to break for some people... it's much better to try to create pages that work well for all.  I know in the short-term it feels like we are making these tables worse for everyone (where before they broke for some) but the hope is that in the long term this site, and all on Wikia will be better for everyone -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 18:29, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Nihongo is the hardest hit, but there are quite a few words being split in two. And again, I know wikia keeps saying "just make it into a page that works for all", but that table is the only way we could get it to work at all.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:35, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, now I understand... I didn't see the Nihongo part (not something I know anything about). We are looking at some new ideas for large tables at the moment... I'm not sure what will come out of it yes, but we are looking -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 20:39, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

A mostly separate matter
Here, you said "Sorry Nerd, but one of the reasons Illogicopedia was accepted (and you'll recall it took a while) is that it specifically did not parody Wikipedia. We don't accept duplicate wikis, and if Illogicapedia had been requested as a Wikipedia parody, it would have been rejected as a duplicate of Uncyclopedia.", as a reasoning as to why wikia consistently lets uncyclopedia skip out on the punishments the rest of us undergo. I understand the reasoning here - my question is actually aimed at where you say "we don't accept duplicate wikis". In the past, I have found several wikis that duplicate either purpose, or directly duplicate material (It is harder to find them now, but that's because central wiki no longer seems to have that convenient "search for a wiki" feature). My co-workers and I were consistently told that "you just have to deal with it, probably nobody will visit them and they'll dry up eventually". So, (1) Is it true that duplicate wikis are not allowed, and (2) what exactly would be required for a wiki to claim that it must retain wikipedia's style?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  23:07, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, we didn't accept duplicate wikis back then, we only allowed one wiki per topic at that time. A while after that, we relaxed the policy to allow people to make wikis on any topic, even if there was an existing wiki about the same thing (and as long as it wasn't offensive or otherwise against the Terms of Use of course)
 * Back then we also allowed new language versions of the parody wikis to have monobook as default. That changed a while back too, and we no longer offer monobook as a default for new wikis -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 03:49, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Theme Designer
It's not possible to upload graphics on the New Skin's Theme Designer. Therefore we can't make any possible tweaks on the newskin design.  BLUER   一番   11:13, October 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you sure about that, Blue? I'm an admin on a few other wikis, and I was perfectly able to create custom designs for both. -- 00:10, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just tried, and something is definitely wrong. I've reported this, and will let you know as soon as I hear something. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 01:13, October 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Sannse. -- 03:04, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, it's fixed, and I tested by putting up a background and wordmark (the wordmark needs fixing, it's too small and not clean enough, but it's a demo of what might work) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 16:09, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Sannse, for the design. I guess we'll stick with the design for the time being.  BLUER   一番   01:37, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * cool, looks OK to me too :) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 16:59, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Reply on the forum
I made one.

Glitches
I found two more glitches. The scroll thing still happens, except three scrolls down from the top, it will shoot back up. Repeatedly. And the second, whenever someone uncollapses a table on a page, it shoots them up to the top of the page again.


 * It also happens when closing a box.


 * Hi, thanks for these... can you link me to pages with the collapsing table and the box issues please? Also, which browser were you using?  I'm re-opening the ticket now, and will add the extra info too -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 19:54, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I meant box when I said table. Here is where I first noticed it.  If you go to the section "Walkthrough maps" under "Other", and uncollapse and collapse the box, the glitch should occur.  And, I use Internet Explorer 8.  Also, I don't know if the following was intended with the new skin, but everytime I login and click the "remember my login on this computer" button and then close my browser later, I will not be logged on when I return.
 * Ah, I see it, thanks... I'm make sure it's in the reported bugs list
 * Log ins are intended to stick, I think there may be a cookie problem around, I'll check that with the techy guys too. Thanks for the reports! -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:02, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Reality of the situation
It has seemed lately that you are either not checking the Forum of late or just not listening to what it is saying. Either way, it is clear that our messages aren't getting to you, so i'm trying to make sure you got this one: I realize that you and your co-workers put a lot of work into the Oasis skin, and I recognize the fact that abandoning it would result in all your hard work resulting in nothing. Unfortunately, if you do not abandon it, and if you keep it on its current course, then the end result will be you losing a great majority of the wiki's, an event no one wants to see happen. Unfortunately, with you enforcing that soon this will be our only option, many feel that we have no choice if we are to maintain a browser-friendly, enjoyable Wiki. You need to accept the fact that Oasis is a failed project. In the end you have to ask yourself: What would be the worst outcome, absolutely nothing, or an absolute disaster?-- Shadows  Twilight  12:50, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi ShadowsTwilight. I'm sorry, I've been mostly away due to unexpected personal stuff >_< I'm trying to catch up now.
 * I do understand your point of view here, but I believe that the new look is a more browser friendly and enjoyable one. Personally speaking, it took me a little while to get used to the layout and so on, but I can honestly say that I find it better to use now than the old skin.  We want to listen to feedback, but we don't want to let initial reactions be the only thing we listen to -- we want to combine that initial reaction with later reactions, and direct user testing and other data such as click tracking.  It's all very new, and we'll know a lot more about the overall reaction as we all settle in to it.  I really hope that everyone here will bear with us though that -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:19, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * While that makes sense to some degree, it's still not going to stop a crapload of wiki's from taking their business elsewhere. I can tell you for a fact this one is EDIT: and while he deleted the original comment, Kryten had a point. The layout of the Wikia shouldn't be something you have to get used to. I remember before i became an editor i only used it now and again, going in and out during infrequent, now-and-again visits, and i'm sure that's generally how Wikia is used. If using it was something i had to get used to, especially if it was really hard to read and navigate through, i wouldn't have gotten used to it, I would've just up and stopped using it. if you use something tat needs getting used to, you're doing more harm to the wiki then any possible good that getting used to it would ever do, so if anything, initial reactions should be the reactions you rely on the most, because that's the only reactions that are going to be provided. if someone likes it when they start to use it, then they're going to keep using it. If they don't, they're not going to give it a second thought -- Shadows  Twilight Χ-blade (Incomplete) KHBBS.png 00:26, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * The idea is that it won't be.... for new users. It's the change for those of us used to a certain layout that is more difficult.  What we did during the first stages of this work was to bring people in to the office (including people who had never been on Wikia) and sat them in front of a wiki using Monaco.  Their reactions were part of what went in to the new look.  And then, once we had the prototype, we put more newbies in front of that (and experienced users) to test the new layout.
 * One of the big goals was to make the skin easier for a new user to find and understand the important buttons... but any change will feel less intuitive for those of us with habits based on a different skin -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 22:04, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * True as that might be, it doesn't explain away the major flaws of Oasis, such as the articles, the entire point of wikia, only taking up a quarter of the screen. Also, just how many were put in front of this gave it their approval exactly? RE:EDIT You've been avoiding the Article-Compression-Issue this whole time. We would really appreciate the explanation of this monstrosity-- Shadows  Twilight Χ-blade (Incomplete) KHBBS.png 22:18, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've not been trying to avoid any questions, although I may not always have an answer (and almost missed this one stuck in an older comment :)
 * The aim of fixed width is to improve consistency between browsers, to give a predictable editing area, and to improve readablity. The width was a design decision, influenced by number of factors including common monitor resolutions, giving a content area width that will encourage people to read and browse, and the need for ad placements (I know that's a dirty word, but they need to be a factor here).  Of course it means that some articles created for wider widths are likely to have problems at first, but it's worth remembering that large table and images would probably have already been causing problems for people on low resolutions.  The aim is that now everyone will see the same and have a better experience in the long-term -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 19:44, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

So instead of some people seeing complete crap in the articles, everyone gets to see it now? that's really warped logic. Why can't you just accept the fact that Oasis is a failure already? I know you're trying to help the Wiki, and i appreciate that, but your doing it in a way that has had the complete opposite effect. All you've managed to do is ruin everything likeable about it. I've only been here for a year and a half, so i really don't have much experience with Wiki or its fundamentals, but even those who have been with this since the monobook days are turning their backs to Wiki all because of this skin. Give it up now before you do the Wiki irreperable harm-- Shadows  Twilight  19:55, November 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that variable pages have their own problems, with a potential for brokenness because editors create them for their own resolution.  Fixed width has the advantage of making that consistent, and while the new width might cause problems on some pages initially, the normal wiki process will improve that in a way that wasn't possible before -- now when you add an image you will know how it fits for everyone. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 20:40, November 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's not what you're saying, but that's exactly what happened.-- Shadows  Twilight Χ-blade (Incomplete) KHBBS.png 23:20, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me ask you something, Sannse. Why do you, personally, still support Oasis, despite the overwhelming evidence that it will do more harm than good to Wikia as a whole?--


 * I support it because I don't believe there is any such overwhelming evidence. I know that the majority of the feedback has been negative, but I also know that that is the most likely reaction to any large change. As I mention below, we have that feedback and all the results of click-tracking and so on from the initial testing stages and just one week of full data from the skin on all 170,000 wikis.  I personally find it a more enjoyable skin to view and use (although one that still needs improvements of course - just as Monaco did throughout it's lifetime) -- but more importantly, I believe in the aims of this project: to improve the usability, functionality and accessibility of the site as a whole.  What the team working on this is doing now is to get data on how well this new look is achieving that aim, and make adjustments based on that data and the feedback to improve on it. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 02:37, November 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Evidence doesn't exist? Have you seen the Forums lately? The whole Wiki community is in an uproar. i don't think i need to remind you how the feedback part is working out, and considering you achieved 0/3 of your aims, i am of the personal opinion that it and the click-tracking is just going to get worse until either Wikia tanks or you switch it back to Monaco, and considering you already said you weren't going with the latter, i guess that just leaves one option left. how can you see all that has been going on sinse Oasis was introduced and still believe that could even possibly be in any way a success? EDIT:something that i just thought of, so even if the entire community says that Oasis is complete crap, as long as your clicky data whatever shows ok results, you're still gonna keep oasis? really goes to show your view on our opinios-- 02:14, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

WOAHWOAHWOAHWOAH ShadowsTwilight. Calm down. If I may step in here, there's no need to take this out on Sannse. She's the only one who's been kind enough to actually talk to us about this on the forums, and not only that, she's the only Wikia staffer who I've seen respond to negative feedback. Just don't shoot the messenger, alright? Sidenote: I'm really sorry that you've been the one getting the short end of the stick here, Sannse, and I thank you for actually listening to us. I hope that you and the rest of the wikia staff are successful in making the new skin work well for the remaining, and I'm glad you understand that it's just not working for us. I honestly hope that someday, we'll be able to return.


 * Thanks KKD, I do believe it can work for you, but I do understand how big a shift it is from what you are used to :)
 * ShadowsTwilight, understanding what's happening with something new has to be a combination of factors. Your opinions are a part of that, and so is other data.  Most of the millions of people who visit Wikia don't tell us what they think.  We are trying to hear them as well as you -- and because they only speak by their actions, it takes a while to hear them. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 06:06, November 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, if actions do speak louder than words, as the idiom goes, I don't see why hearing them was a problem. [/Q] maggosh 06:14, November 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * So are you going to respond or do you need more time to think up of some cock-and-bull response that might sound like it makes sense-- 20:37, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

Joss
I'm the one on Joss wiki, Oh my god I know who made it my friend(who I specificly told NOT to make an account) made it, his nick name is Joss, I was going to show him how to make an account, but he goes against my wishes, I'm calling him now< so Sorry. 21:39, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, sorry, I don't know what this is about. Please contact us via Special:Contact on the wiki you are talking about, and we'll look in to any problems -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:19, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

It said you welcomed me on jossgunder.wikia.com, so I thought you'd know what I ment, my friend made Joss wiki trying to make an account, and I "had new messages" on Joss wiki, wich was weird because he's my friend and must have done something to contact me when he made it, Sorry for the confusion  19:52, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Question
Again, we apologize about the venom you've been enduring. We understand that you are trying to do your job.

I'd like to ask, under what circumstances will wikia go back to Monaco? I think it would ease everyone's minds if you guys show that you are willing to fix things if Oasis turns out to be a bust, 'cause right now everyone seems to be under the assumption that wikia simply doesn't care about the outcome of this, so long as they get their money (hopefully, that is not true, eh? =P).13:45, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Hi. But, of course, without communities Wikia can't work as a business :) We know that, so of course we care about the outcome (as well as wanting things to work for our communities simply because that's the right outcome all round :)

If, somehow, things didn't work out with the new look, I would expect that we would still be trying to find the right way to improve the interface and the site as a whole. I know that we can do better than Monaco, and I believe that over time the new look will prove to be the beginnings of that "better". -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:26, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * So, just to be clear, Wikia's position is definitely "Oasis or bust"?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  01:15, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, it's "we'll keep working on making the site as good as we can" :) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 22:35, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * ...please do not patronize me here. I'd like to confirm, is wikia determined not to return to Monaco for any reason?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  00:52, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * On a related note, I'd like to ask whether it would be possible to be given a copy of the Monaco interface if we decide to leave several months from now, rather than having to leave now in order to retain it. If we can at least have that guarantee, than we'd be much more willing to give Oasis more time to prove its worth. Thanks!(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  00:52, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * That was not intended in any way as patronizing, I'm sorry if it came across that way. There are no plans to go back to Monaco, if the new look doesn't work then we will find out why and fix it.  So far we have the data from the various initial stages of testing and the beta testing, and just one week's worth from the full release.  So there is a lot of data still to gather on how this is working on a large scale.
 * I'm not going to say that there are no possible circumstance in which we might go back to Monaco (I try never to say "never" - that's backfired on me before) but I don't know of any.
 * Most of our code (including Monaco) is open source, and available from our public SVN - you are welcome to copy any of the code from there. Or it's likely that others will have already done so and have copies available, possibly in a more convenient form than directly from our codebase. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:08, November 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! All of that was very helpful, and again, I'm sorry there had to be friction between us.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  02:47, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Severe Bugs

 * The sitenotices don't appear at all when I select the new skin. This is a fatal flaw, and needs to be corrected immediately.
 * Adding necessary tools (such as Recent Changes, Upload photo, or Contact Wikia, which should not even be optional) is difficult, because you have to go to a separate page from the tool-adder to get the name of the tool. It is also more difficult to use, as it is within a toolbox rather than accessible from the top of the page.
 * The top-bar table of contents should not have four fixed-width columns, as it results in too much space used for small amounts of text. The blank space above the ToC could also be utilized for added rows, which this wiki needs (four is not nearly enough).
 * The toolbox add feature is extremely difficult to use, and should have a list of addable tools. It also should have a "remove tool" feature from the get go, rather than making you save and then re-edit the tools.
 * Non mainspace pages appear to lack the history function (such as my own wikia.css article). This is a fatal error
 * Images should not display who uploaded them by default. This, and the "gallery of recently uploaded images" are far, far too vulnerable to trolling. To a lesser extent, the "last edited by" header is as well.
 * At the very least, everything in the right hand column should be moved out of the fixed width area. It is in no way critical to the content of the wiki, and users can easily scroll to the side when they infrequently want to see it. Furthermore, the "recent activity" box on each page obscures google results if a page containing the selected term has been recently edited.
 * The "game" template which we painstakingly coded no longer works as intended, and is once again a complete mess. (Ex: Mickey Mouse) We had to ask for assistance in coding it from three separate wikis, and we don't have the expertise to fix it. To put it simply, you (central wiki) are responsible for fixing the coding so that it works on both monobook and oasis, not us.
 * The multitude of navboxes we created no longer display correctly, because the page is at a different size then they were designed for. It is also your responsibility to fix these, again, not ours.
 * The galleries are centered vertically, which causes them to look like, well, shit. (Ex: Mickey Mouse)
 * While placing the "edit" button nearer to the header makes it theoretically easier to find, it means that they are no longer in one place, making it more difficult to find with the lower header types, which are closer to normal text, and the pencil and text-like "edit" text intrude upon the actual header, and can seem like part of it, especially where we have links or images within the headers. (Ex: Mickey Mouse)
 * I did not notice it before, but several of the ads that are on pages are animated, and apparently audio as well. This is simply unacceptable, especially when they show content above the PG rating of this wiki.

....

I have been trying, desperately, to give this new skin a chance, because wikia is currently the easiest place for us to have our wiki. But in all honesty, I cannot use this new skin for five minutes at a time without wanting to scream. If you seriously find it easier to use, I can only assume that you have either heavily customized it, (because the basic interface, even with the few customizations I have made, is incredibly frustrating), or you simply don't use wikia to contribute material on the level that most editors do. There are a few features to Oasis that are improvements (I appreciate the ability to work solely with a Keyboard), but they are overshadowed by the poorly-designed user interface.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  01:49, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Some of these are design choices rather than bugs, which I know doesn't help you here... but I'll try to reply individually:


 * Sitenotices have been replaced by Community Messages. These show on the Wiki Activity page, with users being notified via a blue bubble when it's updated.  There will likely be an extension of this feature for logged out users in the future.
 * This is designed as an advanced tool, and we've seen that advanced users can generally find what they need here. It's not intended as something that most users will use at first, it's just a shortcut space for more knowledgeable people.
 * The menu structure is one of those design choices - I'll copy a bit from my central talk page here: There are a couple of problems with very large menus. One is that they slow down the site... we've actually seen strong effects on some wikis where they have tried to add all their pages to the menus -- it's not scalable and it can be damaging! The other issue is that people don't actually use them. We did some testing with real wikis and looked at how much visitors used various menus in Monaco. Where they have many options, people end up not using them -- they get a lot fewer clicks overall than if the menu is clear and concise. It's better to work on making a clear menu system with the most popular pages quickly available, rather than trying to make the menus show everything. That will help people find what they are most likely to be looking for, and then they are more likely to stay around and read more
 * Adding "remove tool" earlier sounds sensible, I'll pass the suggestion on
 * The history link is there... I think this may be a bug that was fixed in the last code release
 * This is a new feature, and I know it's a controversial one. The aim is to show people more clearly that there is a community behind the articles --  something that was a problem for people in our user testing
 * The first is one of those design choices, and we consider the side bar an important areas (and, yes, it's also there for ads... they are still needed for us to provide the wikis!). I'll ask about the Google results, that may be a general issue that we need to look at.
 * (Combining a few): Unfortunately a few complex templates, especially those that used positioning to place them outside the content area, will have problems with the change. We can't fix all of them, and often they are so complex that only the original author is likely to be able to fix them (which I consider a serious problem in itself, btw -- but that's a different topic).  You can get advice on the central forums, or I'll be happy to try and get someone to pop in.
 * The galleries formatting is your local CSS by the look of it... the same code elsewhere gives a different effect. I'll look, and try tweaking.
 * I don't see the problem with the pencil in the titles - it may be a browser difference? Please can you send the details (and a screenshot if possible) to us at community@wikia.com ?  Then we can look
 * We don't allow auto-audio ads, so if you see those please let us know. We do allow animated ads (with the animation usually of limited duration) but we still only show most ads to logged out users.  We need ads to run the site, but we do try to keep them to the right level - we want visitors to stay and editors to edit of course!
 * I have to keep moving around Wikia and answering as much as possible, so sorry I can't always answer in this depth... but I'll keep trying to answer as much as I can here too :) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 23:05, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Replies: (ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  00:22, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I found the history in the end, but it's not intuitive, and I'm concerned that making it effectively hidden could violate the GFDL license.
 * While Recent Changes is mostly used by more frequent editors, and Upload image by default requires several-days access, almost all of the "Contact Wikia"/"Report an Error" messages that I've seen on the three wikis I admin were submitted by anons or new users. That feature needs to be default.
 * I'm confused as to why "getting more clicks" indicates success, as the only people I've seen mentioning oasis's table of contents so far were complaining that they spent longer trying to look for what they needed (an example was posted in the complaints forum, in which the guy created his first account on wikia just so that he could voice his disgust). I would think that less clicks would indicate success in a directory tool like that.
 * The image attribution thing is simply destructive to the article. There may be an intent to show community behind it, but that is a vague and hopeful thing, and does not excuse outright destroying the professionalism of the pages. As I said earlier, it is also incredibly vulnerable to trolling.


 * I've just realized, I think that the "Contact Wikia" messages you mean are "report a problem" -- the problem is, that wasn't for contacting Wikia. It was meant as a way to help people contact admins, but it didn't get used that way.  If it was for Wikia, it needed an admin to pass the message on via the feature -- and in most cases that didn't happen (and in most cases the admins didn't know to check for messages for them either).  There's still a link to contact Wikia in the footer, and the default navigation includes a link to the wiki's forum and blog posts to help anons/newbies find any active admins (you may want to have that as part of the navigation here)
 * More clicks is one measurement, it's not the only one :) for example, another figure I know is being looked at is the amount of time that the average person stays on the site.  If people like how it works, they'll stick around... so that's another key figure.
 * I understand the concerns about the history link and attribution -- but the history link is still there (and in two places on articles now). Attribution helped with understanding wikis when it was used in user testing, but it's also something that needs testing on the live site -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 03:41, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

More bugs to report
First, the several "Random Wiki" buttons do not work. At all.

Second, this is a major problem. And it doesn't just happen with the search bar, it happens with all drop down menus (especially the history). Oh, and some ads overlap the drop down search.

Third, I finally found the history button in "my tools", but, if you are in a browser that sees Wikia through compatibility view, floating buttons and pop out buttons do not show. So, as Kryten mentioned earlier, it is a serious problem that a portion of readers and/ or editors cannot access the history. I have found it so.

Fourth, this isn't really a bug, just a request to improve Oasis. Is it possible to allow non staffers to at least view the selections on theme desinger? Because I was wondering what images were being tiled on the background, because, if you look closely, the Unversed emblems become half dark and half light. And, in order to find what you named the wordmark, I had to actually view the source code of the page to find its name.

Fifth, I still do not see how the uploader caption improves anything. It messes with templates. I know you are shooting for a more community oriented thing here, but what is an anon going to care about some guy named The Inexistent uploading a picture of Lea?

Sixth, why are the galleries going vertical? That makes absolutely no sense. What is wrong with having the images next to each other?

Seventh, this one has nothing to do with the new skin, but I am in need of assistance. Once I wanted to see what linking my account to Facebook would look like. I decided I didn't like it, so I discontinued it, but now everytime I come on here after being on Facebook, two separate messages pop up about logging back in to Facebook.

Yup, that is about it. And, in case you haven't been watching the forums lately, a large majority of our community is staying here, although the goal of the Wikia version of the KHWiki will change dramitically. What is left will be converted into a more fan fanatic site, with lower qualtiy info and more theroies.

Eighth, when you expand an image, the little paper with the magnifying glass isn't in the box. It is way off to the side.

Ninth, why did the coders disallow the scroll key to be used? That really is annoying, especailly when you are on a big page where the section hyperlinks don't work right, and you have to manually scroll to the section in question.

Tenth, some of the section hyperlinks in the contents don't function right on larger pages. But, they never worked right for me on Monobook or Monaco, so that could just be me.

Eleventh, the scroll problem still persists ocasionally, at the very bottom of the page, but it pops up and then back down immediatly afterward, so it is more annoying than anything else. I would also like to apologize for the spam, it's just that I type these as I notice them or remember them. Sorry, and thanks.

Twelvth, this one is a suggestion, why don't you put the "Uploaded by ..." inside the expanded box?

Thirteenth, Images don't load for some reason, even when you open them in a images.wikia window, it is just blank.
 * I've noticed that as well, but I don't think it's Oasis' fault. This is something that has happened in the past with Monaco as well, it's prbably a problem with Wikia's server's or something. That said, it does need to be fixed.19:05, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Catching up time! sorry for the delay :) It looks as though some of these are IE7 bugs, we've had a lot of problems with that browser.  You shouldn't need compatibility view with IE8 any more though


 * Random Wiki: Yep, that hasn't worked well yet. It's been disabled while the code is rewritten :-/
 * Overlapping: This is an IE7 bug. I've checked that it's in the bug queue, hopefully it will be gone soon.
 * Ads overlapping: This one is going to be an awkward one by the look of it, we've managed to make it rarer, but it still needs some work (it's to do with z-index and how some ads are sent to us with bad values for that)
 * Compatibility view - floating buttons and pop out buttons do not show: I'm not sure about this one, when I use compatibilty view on IE8 I see the menus and so on correctly.
 * Background: You can save and view the background image, but you have to edit the file extension after saving (because it's set up to accept several different file types). The file is always at File:Wiki-background and the logo at File:Wiki-wordmark.png.  Possibly we could show the settings for the Theme Designer to anyone who visits the page directly, but with the controls greyed out for non-admins.  I'll ask about that
 * Looks like I messed up the tiling when I put up the draft >_< I'll fix that
 * Image attribution: I know this has been a controversial change. The aim is to help people understand that this is a wiki and people like them built it... and so understand that they can contribute too.  It sounds obvious, but it was something that came up in our initial user testing... that people still sometimes find it hard to make that jump.  Adding more visible attribution made a big difference to people's recognition of it being community built content.  Now we want to see if it also helps on the actual wikis.
 * Vertical galleries: can you show me where you mean? Galleries should have only changed slightly, to give a default size that gives three images horizontally, if I recall correctly
 * Facebook: I looked at your Wikia account, and it looks correctly detached from Facebook... this may be a cookie problem. I would try clearing your browser's cookies first... if that doesn't work, then please can you send me a screenshot of the error messages?  ( community@wikia.com )
 * Forums: I'll be calling back in again there shortly... a couple of places have had similar ideas about changing the focus of wikis.  But if it means destroying the work of the many people who have contributed to this wiki, then that's not acceptable.  Building on it to also include fan info is fine of course.
 * Expanded images: That sounds like another browser bug, but I don't see it on the browsers I've tried (including IE8 in compatibility mode). If you are still seeing it, please can you send browser details and a screenshot in?
 * Scrolling: I'll ask someone to look in to this. It's not something I've noticed, but then I don't tend to use keys to scroll much.
 * section hyperlinks: I'm going to need more info on this one - another for the contact address I think :) please include specific examples, and we can look in to it (Special:Contact or community@wikia.com if you have screenshots to send
 * Scroll problem: it pops right to the top of the page? or part way?
 * Uploaded by again: because the idea is that people see it as they view the page (see also more detail above)
 * Images: these were affected by some server problems this weekend. There are still some residual effects (avatars for example) but they should be heading back to normal now.

I think that's all of them! Sorry again for the slow replies... for urgent stuff, it's usually quicker to use Special:Contact, although I do try to reply on all my talk pages eventually! -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 05:03, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'm answering all of them, for the sake of easy reading


 * I see
 * I don't use IE7, I use IE8, but the bug may be one in the same. And, it doesn't help that the only computers with Firefox I can access have anything that uses the term "Wiki" heavily blocked (images, ads, links, and content), or completely blocked, as our school deems anything that has been spawned from Wikipedia "content that is constantly edited by vandals, of which none of those edits are reverted".
 * Okay, I didn't notice it that often, I'll have to admit.
 * I've never run compatibility view on IE8. Like I said earlier, when I access Kingdomhearts.wikia.com on a school Firefox or IE browser, it loads with everything (all Oasis's new links and drop downs) spread out, from top to bottom, with now background or logo . wordmark.
 * Thanks, I figured that out earlier when using theme designer on the I, Robot Wiki.
 * Thanks
 * No offense, but I still don't understand that concept. Well, I understand it, but I don't really understand the reasoning behind it.  Well...  never mind, I'll just drop it.
 * This is what I'm talking about. (The Inexistentence on the Kingdom Hearts Fanon Wiki)
 * Okay, I'll try it.
 * I simply meant that the info will be somewhat degraded as the main vandal fighters will no longer be in place to protect pages.
 * At the bottom. It only appears to happen on uncaptioned or vertical images.
 * You know on the mouse, there is the left key, then the scroll wheel, then the right key? It's a problem not being able to press down on that to scroll.
 * Yeah, that one is pretty much over, sorry for the bother.
 * All the way to the top.
 * Okay
 * Okay, thanks.

The slow replies was fine, I just wanted to make sure we hadn't offended you or anything. Oh, and have you noticed the editing problem? When editing a large page with lots of text and/ or coding, the editor will be about ten keystrokes behind my fingers. It still happens, so I end up typing my answers on Notepad and then copying and pasting (like I'm doing right now). Okay, last thing here. Would it be possible to make "edit page" a tool for the little "My tools" box? It is really a hassle to have to scroll way back up to the top to press the edit button (I liked how it also used to be on the bottom).

In addition, I corrected the background image, but I cannot upload, as the background and wordmark have no actual file extension.


 * Can you check in your "tools" settings for IE8 to see if you have "compatibility mode" checked? I can reproduce the gallery problem with that on, but otherwise it looks fine.  It's similar with the other bugs you mention... I see them on IE7 or IE8 in compatibility mode, but not otherwise.


 * It's possible to add the edit page link to your toolbar with your personal CSS/JS I think -- possibly someone on the Community forums will know the right code (I really must learn js sometime). I'm also hoping that future versions of the toolbar will allow more links to be added... that would be handy.


 * You can upload via the Theme Designer, and then it's saved in the same place whether it's uploaded as a jpg, gif or png. - I've uploaded a new one, and I think I got it right this time!  But please overwrite if I didn't -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 03:04, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Pulling a different discussion out for readability
copied from above


 * "But if it means destroying the work of the many people who have contributed to this wiki, then that's not acceptable." - Honestly, from the comments I've seen, those people want their work to be if not destroyed, then at least heavily neutered at this address.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  14:51, November 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Open content goes both ways Kryten. The same license that allows you to fork, also allows this wiki to continue if you do.  You cannot both decide to leave this wiki (either literally, or by trying to change it from being this wiki any more) and also decide on its future direction.  AS I said on the forum, you are welcome to build on this content, or to start a new fan wiki to go alongside it - but not to try to swap out the existing content for something that doesn't compete with your fork. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 20:16, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...honestly? Open content goes both way, which also means that if there is a community that stays here, and agrees that they don't want to display material that they either wrote, or was posted here, there is nothing unethical about them taking it down, and it is absurd for wikia to call it vandalism. Wikia did not define the mission statement of this wiki, and they have done little to nothing to assist in its everyday running. Wikia has basically no stake in how the site is run, so long as it doesn't violate the letter of the ToU. It is also outrageously illogical to extend your claim to cover "no rewriting of articles". I understand that wikia doesn't like how the skin change is backfiring on them, and that in many cases this method is being used to attack wikia*, but at a certain point they need to accept that "this is the consequence of what we've done", instead of trying to twist the ToU and invent new rules in order to prevent how the communities are dealing with the aftermath.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:45, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

* And honestly, it isn't being used as an attack here. You've made the comprehensive content we aimed for impossible, we get that. The suggestion of fan-inizing the wiki has always been a suggestion-made to boost morale among those saying that they'd stay, but that it would be a dead and purposeless site they remained at-and it slaps of bad faith for you to be treating us like villains for suggesting it.

Actually, I took a look at the ToU again today:

You are solely responsible for the content, including but not limited to photos, profiles information, messages, search results edits, and other content that you upload, publish or display (hereinafter, "submit") on or through the Service, or transmit to or share with other users. You may not submit content to the Service that you did not create or that you not have permission to submit. For submissions to search results pages, you may not submit content that is not compatible with the license used by the particular project of the Service. You understand and agree that the others may, but are not obligated to, edit, delete or remove (without notice) any content from the Service, for any reason or no reason. You are solely responsible at your sole cost and expense for creating backup copies and replacing any content you post or store on the Service or provide to the Company.

When you post content on the Site, you authorize and direct us to make such copies thereof as we deem necessary in order to facilitate the posting and storage of the content on the Site.

...

While we provide rules for user conduct and submissions, the Company does not control and is not responsible and is not liable in any manner for any content submitted to the service.

Emphasis mine.

From my reading, and I'll admit I'm not a copyright buff, it seems that not only has wikia disavowed any ownership of the material posted, but specifically says that although their software handles the posting and storage of the information, it's still our information, and furthermore, any other editor can freely delete or remove the content, without even having a reason to do so. I cannot find anything whatsoever in the Terms of Use to suggest the vast power over what content a wiki will display that you claim wikia has - the terms of use seems to, over and over, lay that responsibility at the feet of the community that inhabits the wiki.

If you can point me to whatever I'm missing, I'd love to see it, because I have never heard of wikia or even wikipedia having the stipulations you claim here.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:54, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

end of copy


 * What those parts of the terms of use boil down to is "we aren't legally responsible if someone puts up bad content" (subject to various obligations that require us to act when informed of it) and "it's a wiki, people are going to edit". It's your content, which you license to Wikia under the CC-by-sa license - that's what I mean by open content going both ways.
 * The Terms of Use is a legal document, not a social one, but those "rules for user conduct" basically boil down to not causing harm to the wiki. I think the difficulty you and I are having is that you think that the changed interface is in itself damaging to the wiki, I disagree and am concerned that the plans to change this wiki's direction are what's potentially harmful. I don't think you are villains for suggesting the change, I understand your intent is good... but I want to ensure that this wiki, on Wikia, continues to be a resource for anyone who visits -- including any potential future community.  -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 03:04, November 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see how, in any way, exploiting Oasis's design to bring more fan-focus to the wiki's coverage could be construed as "harming the wiki". You have stated several times that Oasis is designed to bring in more casual users, and as I said in the forum, wikia has admitted that there are several integral parts of information coverage that Oasis makes unusable, such as the ToC or infoboxes.
 * I honestly cannot imagine the mental hurdles you have to leap through to make "disabling commonly used, integral features" non-destructive to a wiki, but "redetermining the purpose of a wiki to be more in line with the new skin" to be destructive. Yes, several pages will probably be deleted, but as I've said before, the only ones that would really fall under that are ones that are nothing but infoboxes now. No, this wiki would no longer have comprehensive coverage - it would have forum-style, written-article-style coverage, instead, the kind of coverage that gamefaqs, facebook, and similarly-styled sites have shown is actually appropriate for their design.
 * I know I was barely being polite beforehand, but I just can't assume good faith anymore.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  03:15, November 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * "disabling commonly used, integral features" - I think the only feature that describes is the sitenotice. That's been replaced with the community corner notification, and the plan is for another more flexible admin-to-user contact system in the future.  We also removed direct access to widgets (including the shoutbox) and the link to Special:Emailuser.  These were very rarely used - less than 40 times a day across the whole of Wikia in the case of the email link.  Other links to features were taken out to simplify the initial view of the interface, but the features are still available and accessible via Special:Specialpages and the "my tools" feature.  I've no idea where the infobox/TOC quote came from - I absolutely disagree that they are unusable.
 * I think we are both struggling to keep assuming good faith right now... that seems to be a key to this discussion. I agree that bringing a fan focus to the wiki would not be harmful - that's a viable choice for any wiki, just as a strictly encyclopedic focus to content is.  The part that worries me is "this wiki would no longer have comprehensive coverage".  If that involves deleting perfectly good articles that are useful to readers and any future community of this wiki, especially if the intention in doing that is to prevent competition with a fork, then that's the part I have a problem with.  -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 16:57, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Edit summaries
I believe I've run into another severely annoying and frustrating problem. The edit summaries I type don't seem to show up on the recent changes page, which has caused a massive miscommunication involving our "The Keyblade War" end-of-the year contest.22:56, November 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * There haven't been any changes that I know of to that part of the code - edit summaries should show in Recent Changes exactly as before. I just made an edit to Forum:The Keyblade War - Round Two, KH2 Bracket B‎ and my edit summary shows correctly... please can you let me know if you see the problem again? -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 08:03, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to jump in here, Sannse, Lapis, but, uh... Sannse, your edit summary isn't showing up there. And I have several problems regarding the summary too, like Lapis. If you don't believe us I can provide you with a screenshot. Have a nice day, both of you.