User talk:Sannse

Help
Excuse us, Sannse. We're in need of help. The admin's left since August 2007, and there are some articles that we need deleted. They are listed in Kingdom Hearts Wiki:Pages for Deletion‎. Thanks in advance. Blue. 15:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Apologies
We're sorry that you have to be the one that receives the vitriol about Oasis, and we wish we could have more pleasant discussions. However, this isn't just a matter of getting use to the skin - it completely destroys many of our pages irreparably, like Dimension Link. This really isn't a "choice" for us; either wikia allows monaco to remain, or it has forced us to move.

Again, sorry that you have to receive all this negativity. We really appreciate how much work you've put into the project, and we're sorry things didn't work out.Kryten Koro 01:15, October 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Kryten. Thanks for the kind words :)
 * That table does get a bit squished, but it's still readable -- so I wouldn't say "destroyed". One thing to remember is that people using some resolutions already see the table that way.  Part of the reason for using a fixed width is that it means you can design pages knowing that everyone will see it looking the same.  But I know it's more work on pages like that at first.
 * Anyway, thanks for listening, and please let me know if you need anything -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 02:45, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

Just keep the new skin optional. This uprising is going on because eventually we won't have any choice in the matter. If we can keep the mocao skin then any issues we have with the oasis one become mute.03:04, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean, Sannse. Quite a few words are just straight-up cut in half, even when it's one word in a cell. That's beyond bizarre. We already had to fine-tune that page just to get it to display at all on normal resolutions - it is really impossible to "fix" it without removing content wholesale, which is unacceptable.
 * I understand that some people may have lower resolutions, but surely the best solution is to make the wiki look as good as possible to as many readers as possible, rather than making it look like trash to everyone? Why don't you try it just to see  what happens?  03:57, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is what I see: File:Table.png - narrowed, but not cut off. Perhaps there's a browser difference?  If so, that's something that needs to be looked in to.
 * On "make the wiki look as good as possible to as many readers as possible" - yep, agreed. I think we disagree on how's best to do that, but we definitely agree on the goal :) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 04:10, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the top of the table does look like that. That is already incredibly hard to read (try making sense of Cinderella's deck section), and if you scroll down further, you can see that single words end up cut in half. Why don't you try it just to see  what happens?  12:25, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you take a screen shot of the cut off words? I can't see it.  Thanks -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 15:59, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not really, no. Just scroll down and you should see it. Maybe someone else could whip up a screenshot for you, I guess, but I don't have access to image-editing programs on this computer.23:07, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hopefully someone can, I don't get the cut off words, so there's something strange there -- I suspect it may be a browser issue, so I'd like to track it down. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 03:41, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have a screenshot of the entire page, but it's so long that if I put it on photobucket, you'll never be able to see anything. Can I upload it temporarily? -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  04:20, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, here, remember to zoom in. -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  04:45, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that Dark Falcon. I still don't exactly understand, I see some phrases (like "Sonic Blade") on two lines, but none there a word is cut off.  It's possible to tweak things to make two words stay together, but such big tables are always going to break for some people... it's much better to try to create pages that work well for all.  I know in the short-term it feels like we are making these tables worse for everyone (where before they broke for some) but the hope is that in the long term this site, and all on Wikia will be better for everyone -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 18:29, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Nihongo is the hardest hit, but there are quite a few words being split in two. And again, I know wikia keeps saying "just make it into a page that works for all", but that table is the only way we could get it to work at all.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:35, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, now I understand... I didn't see the Nihongo part (not something I know anything about). We are looking at some new ideas for large tables at the moment... I'm not sure what will come out of it yes, but we are looking -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 20:39, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

A mostly separate matter
Here, you said "Sorry Nerd, but one of the reasons Illogicopedia was accepted (and you'll recall it took a while) is that it specifically did not parody Wikipedia. We don't accept duplicate wikis, and if Illogicapedia had been requested as a Wikipedia parody, it would have been rejected as a duplicate of Uncyclopedia.", as a reasoning as to why wikia consistently lets uncyclopedia skip out on the punishments the rest of us undergo. I understand the reasoning here - my question is actually aimed at where you say "we don't accept duplicate wikis". In the past, I have found several wikis that duplicate either purpose, or directly duplicate material (It is harder to find them now, but that's because central wiki no longer seems to have that convenient "search for a wiki" feature). My co-workers and I were consistently told that "you just have to deal with it, probably nobody will visit them and they'll dry up eventually". So, (1) Is it true that duplicate wikis are not allowed, and (2) what exactly would be required for a wiki to claim that it must retain wikipedia's style?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  23:07, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, we didn't accept duplicate wikis back then, we only allowed one wiki per topic at that time. A while after that, we relaxed the policy to allow people to make wikis on any topic, even if there was an existing wiki about the same thing (and as long as it wasn't offensive or otherwise against the Terms of Use of course)
 * Back then we also allowed new language versions of the parody wikis to have monobook as default. That changed a while back too, and we no longer offer monobook as a default for new wikis -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 03:49, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Theme Designer
It's not possible to upload graphics on the New Skin's Theme Designer. Therefore we can't make any possible tweaks on the newskin design.  BLUER   一番   11:13, October 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you sure about that, Blue? I'm an admin on a few other wikis, and I was perfectly able to create custom designs for both. -- 00:10, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just tried, and something is definitely wrong. I've reported this, and will let you know as soon as I hear something. -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 01:13, October 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Sannse. -- 03:04, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, it's fixed, and I tested by putting up a background and wordmark (the wordmark needs fixing, it's too small and not clean enough, but it's a demo of what might work) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 16:09, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Sannse, for the design. I guess we'll stick with the design for the time being.  BLUER   一番   01:37, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * cool, looks OK to me too :) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 16:59, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Reply on the forum
I made one.

Glitches
I found two more glitches. The scroll thing still happens, except three scrolls down from the top, it will shoot back up. Repeatedly. And the second, whenever someone uncollapses a table on a page, it shoots them up to the top of the page again.


 * It also happens when closing a box.


 * Hi, thanks for these... can you link me to pages with the collapsing table and the box issues please? Also, which browser were you using?  I'm re-opening the ticket now, and will add the extra info too -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 19:54, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I meant box when I said table. Here is where I first noticed it.  If you go to the section "Walkthrough maps" under "Other", and uncollapse and collapse the box, the glitch should occur.  And, I use Internet Explorer 8.  Also, I don't know if the following was intended with the new skin, but everytime I login and click the "remember my login on this computer" button and then close my browser later, I will not be logged on when I return.
 * Ah, I see it, thanks... I'm make sure it's in the reported bugs list
 * Log ins are intended to stick, I think there may be a cookie problem around, I'll check that with the techy guys too. Thanks for the reports! -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:02, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Reality of the situation
It has seemed lately that you are either not checking the Forum of late or just not listening to what it is saying. Either way, it is clear that our messages aren't getting to you, so i'm trying to make sure you got this one: I realize that you and your co-workers put a lot of work into the Oasis skin, and I recognize the fact that abandoning it would result in all your hard work resulting in nothing. Unfortunately, if you do not abandon it, and if you keep it on its current course, then the end result will be you losing a great majority of the wiki's, an event no one wants to see happen. Unfortunately, with you enforcing that soon this will be our only option, many feel that we have no choice if we are to maintain a browser-friendly, enjoyable Wiki. You need to accept the fact that Oasis is a failed project. In the end you have to ask yourself: What would be the worst outcome, absolutely nothing, or an absolute disaster?-- Shadows  Twilight  12:50, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi ShadowsTwilight. I'm sorry, I've been mostly away due to unexpected personal stuff >_< I'm trying to catch up now.
 * I do understand your point of view here, but I believe that the new look is a more browser friendly and enjoyable one. Personally speaking, it took me a little while to get used to the layout and so on, but I can honestly say that I find it better to use now than the old skin.  We want to listen to feedback, but we don't want to let initial reactions be the only thing we listen to -- we want to combine that initial reaction with later reactions, and direct user testing and other data such as click tracking.  It's all very new, and we'll know a lot more about the overall reaction as we all settle in to it.  I really hope that everyone here will bear with us though that -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:19, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * While that makes sense to some degree, it's still not going to stop a crapload of wiki's from taking their business elsewhere. I can tell you for a fact this one is EDIT: and while he deleted the original comment, Kryten had a point. The layout of the Wikia shouldn't be something you have to get used to. I remember before i became an editor i only used it now and again, going in and out during infrequent, now-and-again visits, and i'm sure that's generally how Wikia is used. If using it was something i had to get used to, especially if it was really hard to read and navigate through, i wouldn't have gotten used to it, I would've just up and stopped using it. if you use something tat needs getting used to, you're doing more harm to the wiki then any possible good that getting used to it would ever do, so if anything, initial reactions should be the reactions you rely on the most, because that's the only reactions that are going to be provided. if someone likes it when they start to use it, then they're going to keep using it. If they don't, they're not going to give it a second thought -- Shadows  Twilight Χ-blade (Incomplete) KHBBS.png 00:26, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Joss
I'm the one on Joss wiki, Oh my god I know who made it my friend(who I specificly told NOT to make an account) made it, his nick name is Joss, I was going to show him how to make an account, but he goes against my wishes, I'm calling him now< so Sorry. 21:39, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, sorry, I don't know what this is about. Please contact us via Special:Contact on the wiki you are talking about, and we'll look in to any problems -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:19, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Question
Again, we apologize about the venom you've been enduring. We understand that you are trying to do your job.

I'd like to ask, under what circumstances will wikia go back to Monaco? I think it would ease everyone's minds if you guys show that you are willing to fix things if Oasis turns out to be a bust, 'cause right now everyone seems to be under the assumption that wikia simply doesn't care about the outcome of this, so long as they get their money (hopefully, that is not true, eh? =P).13:45, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Hi. But, of course, without communities Wikia can't work as a business :) We know that, so of course we care about the outcome (as well as wanting things to work for our communities simply because that's the right outcome all round :)

If, somehow, things didn't work out with the new look, I would expect that we would still be trying to find the right way to improve the interface and the site as a whole. I know that we can do better than Monaco, and I believe that over time the new look will prove to be the beginnings of that "better". -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 00:26, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

So, just to be clear, Wikia's position is definitely "Oasis or bust"?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  01:15, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Severe Bugs

 * The sitenotices don't appear at all when I select the new skin. This is a fatal flaw, and needs to be corrected immediately.
 * Adding necessary tools (such as Recent Changes, Upload photo, or Contact Wikia, which should not even be optional) is difficult, because you have to go to a separate page from the tool-adder to get the name of the tool. It is also more difficult to use, as it is within a toolbox rather than accessible from the top of the page.
 * The top-bar table of contents should not have four fixed-width columns, as it results in too much space used for small amounts of text. The blank space above the ToC could also be utilized for added rows, which this wiki needs (four is not nearly enough).
 * The toolbox add feature is extremely difficult to use, and should have a list of addable tools. It also should have a "remove tool" feature from the get go, rather than making you save and then re-edit the tools.
 * Non mainspace pages appear to lack the history function (such as my own wikia.css article). This is a fatal error
 * Images should not display who uploaded them by default. This, and the "gallery of recently uploaded images" are far, far too vulnerable to trolling. To a lesser extent, the "last edited by" header is as well.
 * At the very least, everything in the right hand column should be moved out of the fixed width area. It is in no way critical to the content of the wiki, and users can easily scroll to the side when they infrequently want to see it. Furthermore, the "recent activity" box on each page obscures google results if a page containing the selected term has been recently edited.
 * The "game" template which we painstakingly coded no longer works as intended, and is once again a complete mess. (Ex: Mickey Mouse) We had to ask for assistance in coding it from three separate wikis, and we don't have the expertise to fix it. To put it simply, you (central wiki) are responsible for fixing the coding so that it works on both monobook and oasis, not us.
 * The multitude of navboxes we created no longer display correctly, because the page is at a different size then they were designed for. It is also your responsibility to fix these, again, not ours.
 * The galleries are centered vertically, which causes them to look like, well, shit. (Ex: Mickey Mouse)
 * While placing the "edit" button nearer to the header makes it theoretically easier to find, it means that they are no longer in one place, making it more difficult to find with the lower header types, which are closer to normal text, and the pencil and text-like "edit" text intrude upon the actual header, and can seem like part of it, especially where we have links or images within the headers. (Ex: Mickey Mouse)
 * I did not notice it before, but several of the ads that are on pages are animated, and apparently audio as well. This is simply unacceptable, especially when they show content above the PG rating of this wiki.

....

I have been trying, desperately, to give this new skin a chance, because wikia is currently the easiest place for us to have our wiki. But in all honesty, I cannot use this new skin for five minutes at a time without wanting to scream. If you seriously find it easier to use, I can only assume that you have either heavily customized it, (because the basic interface, even with the few customizations I have made, is incredibly frustrating), or you simply don't use wikia to contribute material on the level that most editors do. There are a few features to Oasis that are improvements (I appreciate the ability to work solely with a Keyboard), but they are overshadowed by the poorly-designed user interface.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  01:49, October 27, 2010 (UTC)